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Talk:Hessian Volksgrenadiers
There's few things that make me sigh more than 40k fans and their fetishisation of the German language. — NecrusIV [[User_Talk:NecrusIV|(Talk)]] 02:17, December 18, 2016 (UTC) Thanks HIAG for inspiring a generation of "Germans in Space" with the myth of elite troops and efficient equipment. --Imposter101 (talk) 02:29, December 18, 2016 (UTC) :The Germans were pretty badass though, even I as a Russian whose grandfather was a Red Army officer during WW2, have to admit it. LOGH was what first got me interested in the idea of space Germans though. –Alexander 03:13, December 18, 2016 (UTC) I shouldn't bother commenting about originality either. This is Warhammer 40,000. — NecrusIV [[User_Talk:NecrusIV|(Talk)]] 03:32, December 18, 2016 (UTC) Hopefully you, Alexander, understand how many times those Killzone characters have been reused on this site on many, many different articles that are basically Killzone ripoffs. I also suggest that you clear the copy-paste from Warhammer 40k Wiki's Death Korps of Krieg article, and I also warn you to not do such again. I'm also a bit inclined to removing all Killzone images because... it is of really bad taste and I have a pretty good feeling about it that they are copyrighted to Guerilla and you are not allowed to use them as you see fit. Necrus, you thoughts on it? --Remos talk 10:29, December 18, 2016 (UTC) :Alright, though that was a list of equipment so I don't see what the problem there is, it would not be much difference had I wrote it, given that it is a generic list of equipment. As for the Killzone, no, I never seen Killzone images on this wiki (I haven't been here very long). I don't see how this is a Killzone rip-off if I use Killzone images. As for copyrights, I have seen plenty of wikis use Killzone images for other purposes and nothing happened to them, but whatever I suppose. "Bad taste"? That is purely a matter of opinion, and clearly it is not a universal view if so many people have used Killzone images. It seems a bit ridiculous that admins can ask people to change their ideas if they personally don't like them, especially in a franchise where the official lore is so vague like in 40k. Just don't read the article then. –Alexander 16:12, December 18, 2016 (UTC) :People also rape and murder and nothing comes to them either. Don't copy-paste content from other wikis on your pages and so claim it to be yours. True enough, with closer look it isn't a ripoff, but the usage of those images makes this article look uninspired and of particularly low quality. Using German in the article seems to me as a poor choice, even if the article otherwise had potential. --Remos talk 16:56, December 18, 2016 (UTC) Firstly, the list of equipment issue comes from the fact the text is word for word the same as that of a Forge World 40k book, thus making it plagiarism. Even then, lists of equipment in that vein are pretty much lazy padding. Secondly, it doesn't matter if other wikia's do so. It's still violating copyright, which many wikia's do. While I personally don't care about the image issue myself, the excuse of "but other wikias', doesn't matter if the other wikia's are in the wrong. Furthermore, what applies on other websites does not necessarily apply here. Thirdly, by the logic of "don't read it if you don't like it", I can respond with the much more sound point of, "If you don't like criticism, don't publish it on a web free space where criticism is permitted". --Imposter101 (talk) 16:57, December 18, 2016 (UTC) :I never said that I am against criticism, which is not the case. If you want to criticize it, go ahead, but what I am against is you forcing me to change my ideas to go along with what you like. By your logic, I can say this is a free web space where people can post what they want, as long as it is not too ridiculous, so you will have to get used to people having different opinions than you. The list of equipment I can change I suppose, if it is from a book. Also, with Remos' post above, again, the usage of Killzone images (in terms of quality) and German language is a matter of opinion. If you think it is bad taste then that is fine, but frankly I don't agree. –Alexander 17:11, December 18, 2016 (UTC) I think that using anything (in English fan-fic) but bastardised-Latin as High Gothic, English as Low Gothic, and a language of your own creation as planetary dialects/languages, is of bad taste. But sure, I know I'm quite alone out here. --Remos talk 17:18, December 18, 2016 (UTC) Regardless of whether or not using the images is in bad taste, whether or not the use of these images is a breach of Copyright is the important thing here. Are these images - according to their Copyright Status - able to be reused by you? If so, I strongly suggest you prove it to the admins. And even though I just said that being in bad taste is not the primary issue, I do think that using these images is since - if for no other reason - Killzone is too recognisable and thus arguable unsuitable for use in this conext. As for the use of German, I'd limit it to names as well as a bery limited range of words that are 'Bastardized' German rather than actual German. I'm with Remos in that I'd make the rest Latin, 'Bastardized' Latin, and English since it's more consistent with the rest of the fanon as well as more consistent with the actual canon lore. Now onto the article itself: "The Volksgrenadiers were well-known for their siege regiments, which rivaled those of the Death Korps of Krieg." Gramatical error aside, I would leave out the comparison with the DKoK. Saying that they rival one of the most well-known sets of siege regiments is a bit over the top. If you want to make reference to the DKoK in this context, it might be better to say that these reigments are skilled siege regiments who aspire to be as good as the DKoK as opposed to rivalling them. In the history section, you mention that people spend most of their lives wearing hazmat Suits and/or Gas Masks. Especially given that you indicated that these worlds were supposed to possess advanced technologies, it would have been a lot more likely that they would have at least developed self-contained living areas in which the residents would not have needed to wear such equipment constantly. I also don't think it's a stretch to think that they would have been able to create small cities (maybe larger) where the population could live and work without requiring the use of such suits. I don't have time to go through the rest at the moment, but I hoep what I've pointed out so far helps :) IllumiNini (talk) 00:00, December 19, 2016 (UTC) For the copyright status, I don't know, and I don't know how to find out. Given their widespread usage I would assume that they're free use, but I have no idea. I changed the first part referencing the Death Korps. For the second part, what I meant with that was they wear gas masks when they go outside. They don't have to wear it indoors. I guess I could limit the German usage, but it is pretty limited as it is. I intended the planetary dialect to degraded from German. I suppose I could use entirely English terms for it or use Latin, though it seems like it would make it less interesting. –Alexander 01:17, December 19, 2016 (UTC) "Given their widespread usage I would assume that they're free use, but I have no idea". Yeah you do have no idea. That's not how copyright works. They are copyrighted. Also "As for the Killzone, no, I never seen Killzone images on this wiki" is stupid logic. I've been on this wiki for ~7 years and I've seen it at least a dozen or so times. You not seeing it isn't really an excuse. Although really there's nothing that can be done. Unoriginality isn't policed by the rules, so I can only voice my opinion as a long-time user on how tasteless this article is. It all seems to blur together really: crack secret elite secret and crack Imperial Guard regiments who speak google translate German and are totally not nazis. Seriously there's bound to be several clone articles just like this on/formerly on this wiki. — NecrusIV [[User_Talk:NecrusIV|(Talk)]] 09:24, December 19, 2016 (UTC) Not using German in this context doesn't, in my honest oppinion, make this less interesting. If the language is the point which makes this article interesting... don't you think it is a bit thin? Now, when you use an existing language, there is bound to be a native speaker around. I am not sure if we have any native German speakers here, but I for one happen to speak German and it just makes all the ranks (for example) look a bit... daft. You were a Russian, no? What do you think about IG regiments that were written in English but blatantly incorporate Russian language in its ranks and possibly proverbs et cetera. Characters' and planets' names themselves are quite a giveaway. You have been clearly inspired by the Bundeswehr and Weimar armies, and I personally enjoy when it is rather obvious where the article got its inspiration, but isn't directly derived from a certain source. What I mean to say, is that we who enjoy wargaming, are quite familiar with the armies of the WW2 if not so much with other armies. You can write whatever you like. I merely gave some thoughts on the concept of Hessian Volksgrenadiers, and pointed few rules out there. At least your article is quite concise compact, is well formatted and has everything I want to know about a regiment described in an article. --Remos talk 11:11, December 19, 2016 (UTC) Well, in that case, feel free to delete this article. Maybe I'll make an article for a different IG regiment that is based on a different military if a German one is so disliked around here, eventually. –Alexander 17:07, December 19, 2016 (UTC) I think everyone is somewhat tired of such obvious and often poorly executed homages, such as this one. But if you wish, I'll remove the article. --Imposter101 (talk) 17:14, December 19, 2016 (UTC) What do you mean by "such obvious and often poorly executed homages, such as this one"? I just don't want to keep talking in circles. –Alexander 18:26, December 19, 2016 (UTC) Well, we have the classical cliches such as, The direct use of German language (although, poorly), such as the term Volksgrenadiers, as in the Volksgrenadier divisions of WW2. And then there's a bunch of other German words and it begins to blend together in malaise of "Wehrmacht phraseology". Alongside that, we have the distinctly 'German' aesthetic with some future stuff nailed making it very clear they're supposed to be German. Did I mention they're German? I was half expecting to see them having their own custom tanks called 'Tigers' and Panzerkampfwagons, etc. And then we have the classic troupes lifted directly from the Third Reich. Elitism, propaganda and notions of elitism and espirit de corps. It does read like some HIAG based paper on the Waffen SS or Wehrmacht. Basically it's a collection of common troupes with no real original substance, and yes you can easily 40k isn't original, but it has a 40k spin. This feels far too connected to the real world, it feels far too reliant on direct references. It comes off as lazy. This is only reinforced by the use of images from a popular video game, which itself has a shallow aesthetic based off a movie goers knowledge of the Second World War. --Imposter101 (talk) 18:37, December 19, 2016 (UTC) Oh, I thought you were referring to my desire to delete the article. Never mind, then. Go ahead and delete this article. –Alexander 22:13, December 19, 2016 (UTC)